Cultural appropriation

[adiabatic]

[adiabatic]

[adiabatic]

[mc-lunar]

why is the discussion "how many people will realize that this is bad" vs. "is this bad or not"

[adiabatic]

[jrisk]

Are you basically presenting the concept that cultural appropriation isn't bad if some people don't recognize the culture from which it was appropriated?

[adiabatic]

I'm only interested in figuring out how widespread knowledge about Japanese garments is. I think that if you assume other people around you know lots about the things you wear — and your assumption is incorrect — then you'll be more likely to mis-guess how your clothes will be perceived.

Discussions on whether it's good/permissible but neither encouraged nor discouraged/bad to wear garments largely made for people in another culture are very popular and so it's very reasonable to think I have a position on that, but I…just don't. At least not yet.

I'm happy to continue talking about the contours of clothing knowledge in another thread, but I don't think this belongs here unless Supreme drops a noragi of its own. Can we have this discussion moved to a new thread of its own?

[Eddie]

[oucho]

[ramseames]

I think jrisk was just contextualizing the end point of the argument adiabatic was making, I don't think he believes it.

when i see white dudes in raws and noragis they usually look bad because usually they look bad in the clothes that they're wearing, not because they're desecrating a cultural artifact of the japanese people.

[jrisk]

No I don't think noragis specifically are an example of culture appropriation but I do see that i was needlessly aggressive with my post. Positivity is definitely a better approach to this conversation.

I agree that demanding others to abide by certain standards when interacting with other people's' cultures is not productive. and can easily miss the larger picture. But I do think that you can't claim ignorance (for you or your audience) when it comes to appropriation in general.

[Eddie]

I'm very glad my post made it to this new thread

[trasparenti]

edited because everyone is both more eloquent and more succinct than I can ever hope to be online. Good points made by all.

[CheerUpBrokeBoy]

i think the debate about wearing japanese clothes has less to do with cultural appropriation and more to do with orientalism

like whether you're wearing a noragi cause a kimono-style collar actually improves your fit or because it makes you look like a samurai champloo character

something that still interests me is the steadfast and constant connotation of the kimono-style collar/closure with japan – even when someone like haider ackermann does a fairly basic shirt with a kimono collar it's immediately categorized as "japanese-inspired". which is funny cause i don't think it works the other way – do japanese people see, say, an EG andover as a "western-style" jacket, or is it just a jacket to them

[saveed_samir]

i dont "get" cultural appropriation i mean isnt everything cultural appropriation if u reduce it down enough?? i mean i get those super obvious examples but i dunno , u cant even prove the origin of some certain things like i dunno.... like dreads or some shit.. it just seems so hard to figure out what is and isnt 'appropriation' cuz its all about intent and tahts like subjective.. i think for me it comes down to context well at least in terms of clothes like how someone is wearing it with regards to what other stuf that theyre wearing , like if u see a guy wearing a full samurai master level suuit or maybe a dude falsely wearing monk robes or some shit then its messed up yeah? but i guess thats kind of about intent anyway .

[coolteen49]

I feel like the big issue with cultural appropriation has less to do with what individuals wear and more with big corporations/fashion houses lifting things from other cultures for use in shows and designs without any context. Sort of like or . obviously somebody just wearing a full native headdress for fun or whatever is still not ok, but it seems to me that the monetization of other cultures by big firms is much more of a problem then some white dude in a noragi looking like a goober.

[anotherdayhere]

general cultural sensitivity as well, esp if you're white, there's such a legacy of violent appropriation that I think you should try and be as aware as possible of what you've struggled with vs other people and if you think there's a chance its inapproriate its because it is. I personally could not justify myself wearing a kimono or noragi or whatever for fashion and think that it was cool based on US treatment of asian people, esp japanese, and how recent that was. i think not only considering eastern culture in regards to this but asian american culture and how there are no active stigma against asian people in asian countries but there is still plenty here.

dreads is more cut and dry because they have been popularized by black people and as such regarded as exclusively dirty by white culture until recently and you can't just abolish the damage of that stereotype so that you can look cool at coachella, it's offensive to not acknowledge that people suffered as a result of them practicing their culture, and then go ahead and appropriate because you think it looks cool. I don't think ignorance is a good card to play either, if you're emulating another culture you should make a decent effort to understand it like the million UO/F21 shirts that just say "Gypsy" on them. just do some research!

this perspective absolutely is completely different based on your race and the culture of whatever country you're from, but if you're a privileged person in a relatively wealthy country i think playing by the "could this be offensive? then I won't do it" rule is pretty good to follow, which is marginally easier than people pretend that it is.

[titkitten]

[ramdomthought]

I hope people appropriate what little culture I have so I can find good kielbasa and sauerkraut more places

I will be mad if they bring in not tasty versions of the things though

[ramseames]

the problem with native headdresses is the context within their culture around them. they're given to people who deserve them for political or spiritual reasons, and its offensive in a similar way to how veterans would perceive someone wearing a fake purple heart medal on their jacket.

dreadlocks by contrast are just a hairstyle (so many black people with dreads aren't rastafarians at this point that the argument that they're primarily religious holds little water). Noragis are similarly mundane, being a type of farmer's/peasant's clothing.

[khayandhi]

[mellownyellow]

[ramdomthought]

What's wrong with cultural appropriation?

[ramseames]

[ramdomthought]

Not answering it isn't constructive. You may think it's obvious, and it probably is.

Is cultural appropriation just a racial thing? Did we not appropriate the culture of all kinds of other internet fashion forums with our WAYWT thread, random thoughts, etc? Are these internet groups culture? Is there something bad about it? Is there something good with it?


I think there's a lot to outline about why something is bad, and more importantly how it could be good and healthy instead.

Cultures will all continue to blend, that's where we get the blurred lines titkitten brought up. It's obviously very circular and as more people end up being a part of more cultures (even tangentially) the lines will fade more and more. Unless we can identify why in the meta or in the minutiae of why something is bad (and my hope would again be how to stop it from being a negative appropriation -- what is a negative appropriation? what is a positive? Is there space in between? Does it matter?)

[Syeknom]

[oucho]

[wolflarsen]

[simo]

raise your hand if you are against cultural appropriation as it is an exercise of privilege in an imbalanced power relationship between cultures/countries/races, but have also spent less money than you make in an hour to buy a piece of clothing from a high street fashion shop that knowingly/repeatedly contracts with factories or those who subcontract to other factories with a record of criminally abusive behavior towards those sewing your garments.

[lyysander]